Croydon Council warns developers to provide infrastructure

“Given the ability to place orders online and have food delivered the need to have a car is greatly reduced. A number of my neighbours, who all have cars sitting in their drives all day, regularly receive deliveries from Tesco, Sainsburys or whoever, as do neighbours without cars.

Add into the above the fact that having an allocated parking space when living in flats can be very expensive (in terms of ground rent charges) and there is even more incentive to not have a car.

The fact is that a big target area for the flats will be young professionals working in London looking to utilise the excellent transport links at East Croydon. If I was to carry out a straw poll of young and middle aged professionals in the vicinity of my office I know it would show that over 50% don't have a car. Among those living in flats it would be even greater.

As for the role of cycling - it is a fantastic form of transport and it is a shame that more people don't get out on their bikes. The ability to carry large amounts of food on a bike is limited, but then there is always the bus. People living in central Croydon will have access to a number of large food outlets in the town centre. If they want something more they could jump on a tram to the Purley way, or a bus/train to Purley. When coming home they could take a cab if necessary. A few simple calculations show that the cost of a cab home with shopping every week or two is way cheaper than owning a car.”

“@Austen_CR_LCC:

I'm afraid I am still of the opinion that getting the weekly shop home on a bike won't be happening any time soon when you have two screaming kids in tow. And it DEFINITELY won't happen if it's a big fortnightly or monthly shop. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a family/ community there to help them.

Bikes are good sure, but they can't solve every problem. Hence the need to provide adequate car parking as well. Obviously we both agree that getting car use down to a minimum is a good thing.

And considering the sheer number of shops we already have in our city center losing a few to make some car parking spaces is clearly not the end of the world in my opinion.

Without adequate car parking spaces this entire City Center redevelopment thing is going to be a mess in my eyes.”

“@Chris - getting back to the transport storage issue, the fact is that any residential developments in central Croydon will have to provide on-site cycle parking. That's great - but without investment in cycling infrastructure that provides safe, convenient and inviting cycle lanes, they will be largely a waste of space because few people will buy and use bikes.

Why? Right now many people are scared of cycling because of Croydon's historical transport policy and provision that has treated pedestrians and cyclists as an underclass. That needs to change.

Investment in our town's infrastructure and services needs to take account of the target for journeys to be made by bike (5% by 2026 according to Boris, 10% according to the London Assembly).

Concerning car parking provision in new / converted residential developments, look at it another way - the more space devoted to storing cars, the less there is for other uses, like shops, social facilities and living accommodation.

BTW it's Austen not tin.”

“@kristianG:

I was referring to Austin's comment made Friday, January 25 2013, 9:37PM about how planning allows for less Parking Spaces if you live centrally.

One of the big issues with the Mental Tower, as I believe even Gav Barwell MP accepts, is the lack of parking provision in the design ( I think I've remembered that correctly. The consultation was a while ago ). A lack of Parking Spaces when you're building that many residential units.

Seeing as the target crowd is people who can afford to buy ( which these days means wealthy ) the odds of them wanting a car as well is... A 1/3 of the borough have no vehicle. I'd say some of that 1/3 are not getting by easily. So to only have space for parking for about 50% of the flats in teh Mental Tower is... Not adding up.

And the Nestle conversion will obviously increase the need for more car parking spaces as well.

See where this is going?

I think myself and Austin agreed on most points. It was just this bit about the lack of parking spaces that I feel is the problem. Which is tied to the viewpoint 'they don't need cars so won't get them'. A viewpoint I don't agree with.

Clear enough?”

“Keep attacking that straw man, Chris, Austen didn't say "get rid of them entirely" but you keep banging on about that as if he wrote it or even implied it?

He gave a list of other options for the shopping trip and also highlighted that a third of households don't have a car. That's a third of households getting by without one, I'll wager that there's a few single parents in that section of society.

I'll also note that there ways of travelling by car that don't involve owning one. It's not too hard to picture a future where every street has a set of on-street car hire vehicles on a pay-per-hour basis. This way you would have a range of different types of vehicle at your disposal and would only need to pay as and when you used them, no big up-front charge to purchase a car or a surprise MOT bill. It would make car usage available to people who can't afford to own them, offer more choice, reduce the need for car parking, save people money and provide an incentive to use the alternatives where possible.”

“@Austen_CR_LCC:

I'm afraid you're dreaming on some of those options. Well, in my opinion. I know single mums, and they have a nightmare without a motor to help. It's just not that easy for some. However...

Obviously we're in agreement that car use needs to be reduced. Especially with the Mental Tower, all those new flats, and the Nestle conversion on the cards.

My primary field is Mental Health. So my knowledge of physical health, in this case poisoning by bad air, is limited. It is obvious that if our Central Croydon air situation is that bad we need to get the air cleaner. And that means less vehicle use ( as we agree ), and more 'emission free' transport used.

Bikes might solve it for some, but electric cars and Trams are ( in my opinion ) the way forward. I like hybrids as well, as they're a step in the right direction. I just don't think a family in Croydon with only 1 parent ( a common factor ) can get by without a vehicle. And that vehicle will need parking.

You can't assume they can get by without them. That I feel is the mistake.

Get usage down sure. That's genuinely needed. But get rid of entirely? That I feel is unrealistic.”

“Chris, I'll answer your question first. How do you get the weekly shop home when you've got 2 screaming kids in tow? Plenty of options - leave the kids at home with someone and do the shop alone, order online and get it delivered, take the kids with you to shop locally or take them on public transport, and drive only if you really have to. I do the main weekly shop by bike (big panniers help) and pick up things mid-week on my way home from work.

Who said anything about "getting rid of them (cars) entirely"? Not me. What Croydon Cycling Campaign and its parent organisation, London Cycling Campaign, want to see is it made easier, safer and more attractive to cycle in a more liveable London. Over 40,000 people signed the Love London Go Dutch petition to ask the London Mayor to do just that - http://tinyurl.com/aelzmmw

We want what the Dutch and Swedes have got. By giving people a realistic choice of transport, they will use alternatives to the car - take a look http://tinyurl.com/bhlu5xn to see why. If we had these facilities in Croydon, you can be sure they would be well used.

Right now in our town, only about 1% of journeys are made by bike - across London it's around 2% - but in cycle-friendly Hackney the figure is 10%. The London Assembly want that to be the target achieved by the whole of the capital, as mentioned in their November 2012 report, Gearing Up - http://tinyurl.com/asdjmey

And it is entirely possible to have residential developments which are designed as car free - examples can be found in Amsterdam, Berlin, Bremen, Cambridge and Edinburgh.

Getting back to my concerns, this is that the "Hammerfield" plans involve having a big increase in traffic entering central Croydon at a time when the George Street monitoring station has found that NO2 air quality targets were breached last year and have already been broken this year - http://tinyurl.com/b89x6mj It's a public health issue.

Enabling and encouraging more people to drive into Croydon will make this pollution problem worse. This is in conflict with the plans to increase the number of homes in the town centre, e.g. the "Hammerfield" development itself and the conversion of the Nestlé building. Making more Croydon people sick is not by any stretch of the imagination an example of "sustainable development". We deserve better, not worse.

Since you work for the NHS, I'd be interested to learn what you and your colleagues think about the 2012 BMA publication "Healthy transport = Healthy lives" available from http://tinyurl.com/ckcxcbu which is introduced as follows: "People have always wanted to reach destinations quickly, safely and efficiently. But as the UK transport environment has become increasingly complex, transport's impact on health has become unnecessarily harmful - to the point where it is a significant cause of morbidity and mortality. Our aim is to show the positive effect that integrating health into transport policy will have ... and will be of interest to health professionals and the public."”

“@Austen_CR_LCC:

Much as I'd like to agree with that how do you get the weekly shop home when you've got 2 screaming kids in tow? You can't do that on a bike. A vehicle of some sort is needed.

Much as I agree we need to get car use down getting rid of them entirely is, in my opinion, a very unrealistic prospect. It just won't happen.

And those cars, even the ones that are hardly used, will need to be parked somewhere.”

“Good to note Cllr Letts has something to say in Public. It's just a pity she is not so openly available to discuss the huge £multi-million Croydon PCT deficit she was responsible for (not) monitoring.”

“A third of the borough's households don't have a car.

Council planning policy - which reflects regional and national guidance - is that homes near amenities including public transport links - should have significantly less car parking provision than would be the case if they were out in the sticks.

Instead of planning for more cars in Croydon - making the already poor air quality even worse - our Council should be making it easier to live without them.

It's a shame - to say the least - that some Members of the Council don't get that.”